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Talk:Rhaandarite
Rhaandaran Considering that this is only background information from a production source that was never seen on screen is it valid for an article? — Morder (talk) 08:46, February 8, 2010 (UTC) : Yeah, it should just be quietly merged to the species article like was done ages ago with the rest of those like this. This one was just overlooked, that's all. --Alan 13:34, February 8, 2010 (UTC) Suggestion to move to Vegan There's background sources calling these Rhaandarites, but also sources calling them Vegan. Steven Lance for example has said that he was told he was playing a Vegan https://www.linkedin.com/pub/steven-lance/30/567/a25 (only for his first hand knowledge to be corrected by memory alpha :D). Now, neither names are canon, but given that Vegans were mentioned in the script I think that name should get preference over some magazine article. -- Capricorn (talk) 11:11, May 7, 2015 (UTC) :The problem I have with this is, that there are two magazine articles both citing interviews by costume designer Robert Fletcher. I think information about both names are valid and equal so why not leaving it the way it is and including the information from the Vegan article here? Tom (talk) 19:25, September 20, 2015 (UTC) I don't understand the logic that comment; you're saying both names are valid and equal, and therefore you have a problem with merging this article into the other and instead want to merge the other into this one? For the record, the reason I suggested merging this one in the other one and not the reverse was because a writer's opinion on how they were named felt like having more weight then that of someone not directly involved in crafting the story. -- Capricorn (talk) 05:22, September 27, 2015 (UTC) :I see your point and don't know what I was thinking. I somehow missed the important note that the shooting script is calling them "Vegans". Tom (talk) 07:37, September 30, 2015 (UTC) ::I'm very disappointed that this entry is suddenly back to "Vegan". When I interviewed Billy Van Zandt in 1984, he told me how his race was originally called "Vegan" - and it was me who then noticed the reference to "high-domed Vegans" in the shooting script and I added that info here a few years ago. But Fletcher finalized the alien names for all the publicity material (including the theatre program, press releases, Citadel's tiny metal miniatures, and interviews) so it's always been "Rhaandarite". Therin of Andor (talk) 06:42, January 1, 2016 (UTC) Sorry to have created all this fuss: but in light of that last comment I think Rhaandarites would be the correct name after all. -- Capricorn (talk) 09:12, January 18, 2016 (UTC) :Sorry but this changes nothing, IMO. As Capricorn wrote above the reason is clear. I also cannot see a reason why Capricorn now recalls his statement from above. Again the question, and as I was told above, the script stands before the production staff. So if no one else has a valid comment why this change should be turned back I would remove the "rename tag". Tom (talk) 14:48, January 26, 2016 (UTC) :::If I understand correctly, there are 2 sources in print. The script says Vegans, and publicity materials say Rhaandarite. Isn't it possible that both are true? There is precedent with another TMP species being called by two names, the Aaamazzarites/Therbians. Perhaps "Rhaandarite" is what they call themselves and "Vegan" is what outsiders call them? -- Connor Cabal (talk) 21:09, January 26, 2016 (UTC) The reason I think Therin's comment changes things is because it portrays Vegan was just a temporary placeholder name, pre-finalization. -- Capricorn (talk) 22:26, January 26, 2016 (UTC) :Then please provide one official in-universe source calling them Vegans. Still, your comment, that they are called Vegans in the shooting script is valid. And you've said it before, "writer's opinion on how they were named felt like having more weight then that of someone not directly involved in crafting the story." Tom (talk) 22:34, January 26, 2016 (UTC) ::::If Vegans are presumably from Vega, well that's the Human name for the location, right? So that's what man dubbed them, just as those from Sigma Iotia II are called Iotians, never mind what name they might have had for themselves. --LauraCC (talk) 17:37, January 27, 2016 (UTC) For whatever it is worth, did Gene Roddenerry refer to them in his novelization? If so, what did he call them? -- Connor Cabal (talk) 09:16, January 28, 2016 (UTC) :::::No. No reference to either. -- sulfur (talk) 11:28, January 28, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Like Therin, I'm unhappy that this page has been changed to Vegan. The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture by Gene Roddenberry and Susan Sackett calls them Rhaandarites: Ve's biggest project each day involved making up Billy Van Zandt, the Rhaandarite alien on the bridge. The January 2002 issue of Star Trek: The Magazine also calls them Rhaandarites. Can we please change the name back? NetSpiker (talk) 09:24, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::::I'd opt for this page remaining at Vegan, since that's what they're called in the shooting script. --Defiant (talk) 09:29, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::I'd like to point out that the Mugato is called a Gumato in the script for A Private Little War. How do we resolve this? Do we call a vote? NetSpiker (talk) 09:37, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::The Mugato was called a Mugato on screen though. That takes precedence. We already have a precedence set for resources on these, and Mugato, Vegan, and Aaamazzarite‎‎ already all fall into that precedence order for naming. -- sulfur (talk) 10:12, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::According to the Memory Alpha:Resource policy, you're wrong. The Making Of Star Trek: The Motion Picture is part of category 1. Reference works created by production staff. The script is part of category 2. Material used day-to-day by production staff. So the name Rhaandarite takes precendence. NetSpiker (talk) 11:04, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::::Incorrect; that list is not in order of precedence, which is why it doesn't say it is. Hence also this discussion. --Defiant (talk) 11:55, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::In that case, what is the order of precedence? I can't find it anywhere else. If Memory Alpha doesn't have any rules regarding precedence of secondary resources, then how do we resolve this discussion? Do we call a vote or does the highest ranking editor make the decision? NetSpiker (talk) 12:10, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::That book falls under #4 btw. "Any authorized non-fiction reference works (for example, blueprints)". -- sulfur (talk) 12:29, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was written by Gene Roddenberry, which makes it 1. Reference works created by production staff. Are you arguing that Gene Roddenberry doesn't count as production staff? NetSpiker (talk) 12:35, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::No. I'm arguing that the order was determined that #1 only includes the specific items listed there. Which was the intention when that list was determined many years ago. -- sulfur (talk) 12:49, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::It doesn't make any sense for one book written by production staff to be in the highest category and another book written by production staff to be in the lowest category. What's so special about those five books that gives them a higher value than a book written by Gene Roddenberry? Now that I've taken a closer look at the Resource policy, a lot of it is very confusing. The Star Fleet Technical Manual wasn't written by production staff and if the only parts of it that are accepted are the diagrams seen in the movies, then that's already covered by Visual material (what is seen). And why are Star Trek Star Charts and The Making of Star Trek listed under a Reference works created by non-production staff heading when Geoffrey Mandel and Gene Roddenberry are clearly production staff? It seems clear that Vegan is an early-production name while Rhaandarite is a late-production name. NetSpiker (talk) 13:40, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::As you say, I think that is indeed clear (therefore, there's no need to state it). However, "Vegan" is what was used on the set so, imo, that's what should be used. --Defiant (talk) 13:49, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::In other situations we always use the late-production name. We use Vulcan instead of Vulcanian. We use Xindi-Primate instead of Xindi-Humanoid. We use Xindi-Arboreal instead of Xindi-Sloth. NetSpiker (talk) 14:08, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::::I disagree with the premise that what's in the script should take precedence. The script is the beginning of the process, not the end. The creative process is one of constant change and refinement, with later ideas supplanting earlier ones. The Yorktown became the Enterprise, Robert April became Christopher Pike, Julien Picard became Jean-Luc Picard, etc. It's the later terms, not the earlier ones, that should be given more weight. And it is clear from the production memos that the creative team changed their minds and replaced "Vegan" with "Rhaandarite" as the species name. ::::::::Also, for what it's worth, my copy of the TMP script never refers to Billy Van Zandt's character as a Vegan, but strictly as an "Alien Ensign." The only reference to "high-domed Vegans" is in the description of the air tram station scene, and was probably written before the aliens were designed. Since several of the species in that scene could be described as "high-domed," I hardly think this constitutes solid evidence. (Full disclosure: I used the term "Rhaandarite" for this species in Ex Machina and other licensed fiction.)--CLBennett (talk) 14:39, March 16, 2016 (UTC) :::::::Scripts are not necessarily the beginning of the process; a lot of scripts are post-production, archive versions, for instance. My personal inclination is to go with scripts that are the latest possible copies. And then use naming from those only if there's no contradictory on-screen naming. For instance, we opt for Christopher Pike rather than Robert April, because "Pike" is what's used on screen. If that character were unnamed on screen, though, we'd use the latest version of the script available to us. Simple. --Defiant (talk) 14:47, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::The less commonly used term is usually a redirect. --LauraCC (talk) 16:07, March 16, 2016 (UTC) ::::::There's no objective reason why a script should have a higher authority than a Making Of book. There are numerous changes between the shooting script and the finished movie. For example, Sonak is described as white-haired, grizzled in the script. In the script Kirk and Spock explore the interior of V'Ger together and the dialogue is completely different in this scene. Also, like Christopher said, the script doesn't describe the Ensign as a Vegan, it merely mentions that there were Vegans in the air tram scene. ::::::The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture is already used as a source for the names Aaamazzarite, Arcturian, Betelgeusian, Kazarite, K'normian, Megarite, Rigellian, , Shamin and Zaranite. It doesn't make sense for the book to be counted as a valid source of information for those names but not for Rhaandarite. Either the book is a valid source or it isn't. ::::::On the Psi 2000 page, we use the picture from the remastered episode instead of the picture from the original version. It's the same with every other planet in TOS. If newer on-screen material always supersedes older on-screen material, then logically, newer production material always supersedes older production material. ::::::Like I said before, we use newer names in all other cases. Just as we use Xindi-Primate instead of Xindi-Humanoid, we should use Rhaandarite instead of Vegan. NetSpiker (talk) 01:16, March 17, 2016 (UTC) :::::This isn't the place to redetermine that policy. :::::Don't try to redefine things like that. :::::Those other names in the book you're constantly referring to as a "bible" was used because nothing else had a reference to their name that took higher priorty in the list that has been deemed as being the "master list". :::::Things were determined that way for a reason. For one thing, Roddenberry, unfortunately, had a nasty habit of redefining reality on a regular basis. For another, when you redefine the priorities on a site such as this with as much history as this, it means that everything will have to be readdressed, and everything will have to be looked at again. Is that worth doing? I'm not sure. :::::What's not worth doing is arguing a point against a policy that has been in place for some time by shouting louder and louder "but this is from Gene, so it must be right!". -- sulfur (talk) 02:45, March 17, 2016 (UTC) ::::::I never mentioned the word "bible". And my main point is that the name Rhaandarite should be used because it came from a newer source, not because it came from Gene. The reason I feel so strongly about this is that Vegan isn't simply an alternative name. It's an incorrect name. Rhaandarites do not come from Vega, at least not according to Star Charts. ::::::The policy is written in a confusing way if me, you and Defiant all read it and all interpreted it completely differently. Why should I believe that your interpretation is the correct one? I will be bringing this up on the Resource policy's Talk page. ::::::You say that if the priority policy is changed then everything will have to be readdressed. Can you think of a single example of another page that would have its name changed if a policy of "newer production source takes precedence" was used? I don't think anything would need to be changed except the name of this page. And keep in mind that I'm not arguing for this page to get a new name. I'm arguing to restore the name it's always had. NetSpiker (talk) 03:27, March 17, 2016 (UTC) I see that once again a discussion is derailed by nothing more then misunderstanding of policy, and overconfidence in being right regardless. Throwing out essentially everything by NetSpiker, which I'm sad to conclude is consistently irrelevant, the claim has been made above that they were named Vegans in the shooting script. The reality however is slightly more nuanced: the aliens were named both Vegans and Rhaandarites by production sources, and the term Vegans was used in the script. However, it is not 100% unambiguously clear that the mention of Vegans in the script referred to these particular aliens, which were presumably just one of a bunch of makeups developed for a scene that called for a number of aliens, including Vegans. I'm not saying that changes things, but it is worth noting that the script does not clearly point at these guys and call them Vegans. -- Capricorn (talk) 03:54, March 17, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Indeed, Kazarites, K'normians and Zaranites can all be described as "high-domed". The only evidence we have for this particular makeup being a Vegan is the Steven L. Hirsch photo from October 1978, which describes him as an alien being from the planet Vega. This photo would be Any other behind-the-scenes or production material, which is part of category 4 on the order of precedence and therefore on the same level as Making Of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. NetSpiker (talk) 02:32, March 18, 2016 (UTC) As Defiant has pointed out before, there is no order of preference intended in that list. -- Capricorn (talk) 03:31, March 18, 2016 (UTC) ::::::Sulfur has said that there is an order of preference and he has changed the wording of the Resource policy to make that clear. NetSpiker (talk) 03:37, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :::::::::"A valid resource with a higher precedence can, but does not always have to, be given slightly greater evidentiary weight..." :::::::::The "order of preference" is a general guideline for conflicts in resources, but only as a tie breaker at best. It shouldn't be the basis of an argument for one resource over another. - 04:47, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :::::::::Also, based I wha I've been able to find, it seems that novels that do reference the species and the CCG used Rhaandarite. That said, I'm not great at this type of research this late at night on a less than helpful apple product, so it might be worth it to double check me. - 06:59, March 18, 2016 (UTC) :::::::::: This is touched on above, but not this (additional) specific reference in The Making of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, pg 132, where all the aliens are being described, it seems to specifically go to an aside in the description of Rhaandarites: "... Crew member on Enterprise bridge, played by Billy Van Zandt... ..." In fact, he is the only actor and/or character singled out in the 16 species/groups listed. Additionally, I do see a stronger point in determining prominence by determining which name is most consistently used in production references, and therefore most familiar to readers. A bookumentary of a film contains much more closure as a whole, than the ever-changing scripts.--Alan del Beccio (talk) 01:29, September 2, 2016 (UTC) :::::::I've recently reviewed some of the bginfo from the film and have revised my opinion that this species should be called Vegans on Memory Alpha; I now believe they should be referred to as Rhaandarites here, as that's the name they were ultimately given. --Defiant (talk) 07:12, September 2, 2016 (UTC)